Posts by Wayne L

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Poppers - Taking a second look I didn't answer you Q. My friends and other JWs I talk to would not approve of this. They don't really know because I've never mentioned it to them.

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

POPPERS WROTE - yne: "Maybe I have been misled," Well, that's a posssibility, isn't it? From Wayne: "but I assumed that anyone ready for babtism knew what he/she was getting into." Yes, you've made an assumption. You don't actually know, do you? Those who convert aren't aware of consequences until after baptism, and after the love bombing has ended. They are told to examine their current religion, but after baptism as a JW they aren't allowed such examination with outside sources that aren't controlled by the organization. Doesn't that tell you something about control? From Wayne: "I know of no one personally who had any thoughts of leaving after making such a commitment." To get a complete picture why not ask your friends for references of disfellowshipped ones and talk to them. From Wayne: "And there is the Q as to how many are on this site, and others like it. I have a habit of knowing what I'm getting into. Didn't they?" They either didn't have a choice, having been brought up in it, or they weren't given the complete story prior to conversion. So no, they didn't know what they were getting into. From Wayne: "Your experience with them seemed all negatives. Mine is totally opposite." You are seeing only one side. Do some investigation to see it all. Wayne: "And how does one become a JW nurse or doctor or lawyer or scientist or teacher if education is frowned upon?" Some are already in professions prior to baptism. To become one after baptism is rare, and those who go after higher education are viewed with suspicion. Check out this from youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ctU6ZjasUpA From Wayne: "And how can the Internet be taboo and yet WT has a website?" It tells you something that there are very few pro websites for JWs. They don't want people on the net because there is too much out there that refutes their claims. If internet use were encouraged more openly and without restriction a lot of people will be more apt to openly confront the WT. They'll lose control and their ranks will rapidly shrink. Instead they are convinced that the governing board has a direct line to god and they are his mouthpiece - in effect, they put themselves in god's position, so to go against the organization is to go against god. Read the following on baptism. ------------- From freeminds - http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/baptism.htm In line with these sentiments, in 1985 the Society changed the baptismal vows such that new Jehovah's Witnesses committed themselves not only to God, but to the Watchtower Society. This is evident from the baptismal vows published over the years. The baptismal questions from the Aug. 1, 1966 Watchtower (p. 465) were: (1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ? (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit? The May 15, 1970 (p. 309) and May 1, 1973 (p. 280) issues printed slightly revised vows. The newest baptismal questions were set forth in the June 1, 1985 (p. 30) Watchtower: (1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? (2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Note how different the second vow is from the earlier versions. The Society has managed to get newer members to, in effect, join a worldly club from which their membership can be terminated at any time by the Society (disfellowshipping) while at the same time convincing these newcomers that they have only dedicated themselves to their Creator. Can any actions be more devious? When a person becomes a JW, he or she is not told about the legal ramifications of joining the club. If the person decides to quit and says, "Hey, I dedicated myself to God and not to an organization," the Society may write a letter saying something along these lines: `From the date of your baptism and your joining the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, you professed the Christian faith, agreed to adhere to the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses and agreed to submit to the rules and procedures of the ecclesiastical government of Jehovah's Witnesses.' Note the legalistic phrase "ecclesiastical government." The WT Society never applies this to itself in any literature for public consumption. Instead it uses euphemistic phrases like "theocracy" to lull the sensibilities of the rank and file. The change in baptismal vows protects the Society from legal challenges but is obviously completely un-Christian. The insidious thing is that, when challenged, the Society uses the legal ploy that it is a voluntary association, like a club, but then claims that a person has repudiated the entire Christian faith if he leaves the club. Technically, the Society gives a person two choices when leaving the club: disassociation or disfellowshipping. In practice a third choice is to leave the person alone. This is common and occurs when the elders do not feel threatened by the person's leaving, or when the person is able to threaten the elders personally with legal action. Most longtime Witnesses are surprised to learn about the changes in the baptismal vows, in particular what these commit a person to and the legal obligations he takes on. Again we find dishonesty suffused through the Watchtower organization like water in a melon. ------------------------ Do you think the WT wants this to become publicly known by prospective converts? That's a distinct possibility if internet use is promoted. Do you think young people who are encouraged to get baptised are aware of the ramifications if he follows through and then later begins to question things? Instead of focusing on what you agree with as far biblical interpretation goes, widen the scope of your examination to include the WT itself.
IP: PkRq2pvtK0f6UMqu

poppers	Re: WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....
Post 1737 of 1747 since 27-Mar-04	From Wayne: "The reason I'm not a JW is simple. I don't have a religious bone in my body. I think religion is bunk." So then you admit that the JW religion is bunk as well. How does that sit with your friends? Have you even told them their religion is bunk?
IP: PkRq2pvtK0f6UMqu

poppers	Re: WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....
Post 1739 of 1747 since 27-Mar-04	Just a reminder, you still haven't answered my question about how your friends view your defense of

WAYNE WROTE - Poppers - I am going to check out those sites you gave and check out WT website for info on a number of issues including the new babtismal requirement. So far the official site only warns of porn on the net. I will look further as to a general restriction on the net.

I would never tell my friend what I really believe. He still has hope for me that will never be realized.

The WT itself does not know of my personal defense of them. Things picked up through the grapevine over the years, and things read, tell me that they are non-confrontational and I know they would not want an admitted agnostic? speaking for them or, as you've seen, making a mess of things as in this thread. And you must know that they won't even send literature to anyone who orders it through mail. They deliver it by local members. Their goal is to get me to attend meetings. I admire them for this as that is what they do, and should do. It has been difficult for me to pull all this off.

Members I know want me to go to meetings but I have put them off so far.

As to your opening line "Maybe I have been misled", join the club. I have fallen for many foolish things, like pyramid schemes and such. And I started to believe in astrology at one point until I discovered that because of something called "precession of the equinoxes, nobody today is the sign they think they are, They're one or two signs behind, or ahead, I can't remember which. I found this out after spending $100s on books. Wayne

PS Sorry again but I don't know how to delete your post without deleting mine.

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Poppers - The reason I'm not a JW is simple. I don't have a religious bone in my body. I think religion is bunk. I knew the pic of the flying swamis (or whatever they're called) was a hoax long before it was exposed.

I only mentioned it to know what you thought. Psychic phenomena is bunk also, until someone comes forward. There is a foundation somewhere that I read about years ago with a million dollar standing offer to anyone who can prove it! I wish I could. Any one who can will be set for life, that's for sure.

What else was in your post ? Oh, yeah. What would I do if I had issues with doctrines? Maybe I have been misled, but I assumed that anyone ready for babtism knew what he/she was getting into. I know of no one personally who had any thoughts of leaving after making such a commitment. And there is the Q as to how many are on this site, and others like it. I have a habit of knowing what I'm getting into. Didn't they? Your experience with them seemed all negatives. Mine is totally opposite.

And how does one become a JW nurse or doctor or lawyer or scientist or teacher if education is frowned upon? And how can the Internet be taboo and yet WT has a website? But I digress. Wayne

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Poppers - Sorry for including your post with mine. I meant to delete it.

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

The only thing wrong with it is that the only thing in common on this site is a dislike and even hatred of Jehovah's Witnesses."

Since you haven't been a JW you haven't had to deal with the things former dubs have had to deal with. Your viewpoint hasn't been affected in the way theirs has. I think they should be given latitute to deal with their feelings in an environment in which they feel safe, and this site provides that. When someone comes here and tries to deny them that there will inevitably be a reaction. There are many here who have indeed been raped and abused and have been abandoned by the confines of Watchtower doctrine to their own fate - a heartless situation which only adds to feelings of betrayal. Besides that, there are many ex dubs here who don't share your assessment of how the JWs are viewed. Many of these have a compassion which is forged in the fire of their own struggle to exit and only wish to extricate their loved ones from what they feel is an unhealthy and unnatural environment that goes against the grain of human decency inherent within the individual, but snuffed out by an imposed doctrine. I share that compassion despite never having been a JW and try to insert ideas to consider which will take one beyond the conditioning they are entrenched in. I would ask that you consider the possibility that there are people here who are telling the truth of their experiences with JW life. I would ask that you consider the possibility that the WT isn't the entity it demands its followers to believe and that its doctrines impinge on the pursuit of happiness and growth that is natural for an individual to seek.

From Wayne: "Popper - You meditated for 30 years and quit. Why? I did TM (the non-religious kind) for 1 month in the 70s and quit. It has been shown to relieve stress and it's been said that if a certain % did it all would be peace and harmony in the world."

I practiced TM for 9 years before becoming disillusioned with the movement, but I continued with other forms of meditation for many years following TM, finding that other techniques were just as effective as TM. It wasn't until later that could accept the fact that it too exerted pressure to live one's life in a certain way, a pressure that I overlooked at the time because I saw what I wanted to see for most of the years I was involved. Maharishi has taken a noble undertaking, meditation, and distorted it to his own financial benefit. He was deceptive in presenting it to the public so that many people were unaware of the Hindu underpinnings of his technique. He/the movement continues to fleece his gullible followers into taking more and more "advanced courses to speed up one's evolution", courses which are sometimes destructive to those who take them, and courses which are totally unnecessary except to bring in more money. He deceived his followers in what "enlightenment" is so that they are brainwashed into believing that it is something that will only happen in some future when enough people are meditating. He/the movement has skewed scientific studies which purport that TM is more effective than other types of meditation that cost virtually nothing, as compared to $2500 to learn TM. He has made claims about a certain percentage of people who meditate in an area will reduce crime, yet Fairfield, Iowa (home to Maharishi International University) has seen no such decline ever despite having a much higher percentage of that community meditating than his claim requires. He has shown himself to be manipulative and abusive to female followers; hardly the image he wishes to project to the public, but covered up to protect his reputation. In short, he isn't what he claims to be and he has bamboozled people for many many years - hallmarks of a cult like organization.

Why did I quit meditating? Because I came to the point where it wasn't necessary anymore. I woke up to what I am, and my daily life is experienced in a state of natural meditation. By that I mean: when you realize your true essence a natural byproduct is to be in a thought free state (most of the time). When thought is needed it is there; when not needed, thought/mind abates - nothing has to be done anymore for this to happen, it is my natural state. The egoic entity, the personal sense that convinces one that he is separate from everyone else, has been seen through as a fiction, so it no longer dominates how life is experienced and viewed. Without that identification with the ego, life is experienced in peace and stillness despite outer circumstances because what is viewed is no longer seen to be separate from what I am. Life is lived in the present moment now, without reference to the past or future unless for practical purposes. It is this natural state that is the "commonality" I referenced in my previous post. By helping others to see this within themselves, fear and hate of others cannot take root because they are solely the byproducts of the separate sense of self. It is that separate sense of self which gets in debates with others, it is that separate sense of self that demands things be its way, it is that separate sense of self that does everything it can to protect its own idea of "self". And it is that separate sense of self that I wish others here to likewise discover to be a fiction which covers one's essential nature of peace and wholeness.

>>>>>>>>Poppers - What is a "dub"? I'm a newcomer.

If you live in Canada (forgot your profile) you know that in the last 10 years or so, that there has been a flurry of "rapists" and "murderers" released from prison for one reason or another. In some cases it was found that the witness lied, or mistaken identity or sloppy police work. The 2 most famous cases are Stephen Truscott (of book fame) and Donald Marshall (an Indian). These 2, plus many more, spent, 20+ years in jail for cases built on very shaky ground. Can you conceive of that happening to you? If JWs (note that I don't use the term Watchtower because of its bad connotations) have a strict burden of proof requirement, they have a reason. They can't spit on a sidewalk without it being noted.

It is an extremely serious thing to toss those words around in these sites as though talking about the weather. There are other cases in Canada where people's lives were ruined by accusations and no charges ever laid, or they were exonerated. While no names are mentioned here, the entire movement is tainted.

Any Witness who was ever molested or otherwise harmed should use the law to the fullest.

You referred to an unhealthy and unnatural enviroment. What would that be? And did you (not being one of them) ever personally witness this, apart from in sites like this? Do you know JWs, and what are they like?

About TM, it sounds like you got involved in the religious type with its gobbleygook and flying Yogis. "Magic Carpet Ride"? I only did the non-religious, and quit because I have problems following through with things. Considering how stressed out I am, that was a bad mistake. I have to take 3 blood pressure pills a day! Wasn't the famous picture proven a hoax?

I don't quite get what you mean by "commonality" and such. It might be your natural state by I don't see much of it on this site. Wayne

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Frank - I used New York Times as one example, off the top of my head. Reporters love anything JW related. And anything major would usually be carried on for a while. It would be hard to miss. Not impossible, but hard. It's the type of news I look for. I relish anti- Witness news. But it must be relative and important.

You have directed me to links that have inflammatory headers, and exaggerations.

And I made no contradiction. I have stated numerous times that I don't agree with all their stuff. That stuff usually can't be proven one way or the other so I ignore it. That they have dispelled many falsities is to be commended. I thank them for teaching me the "hostile witness" approach. It is the best way, in my view to research religion, until a better way comes along. When I find where a major scholar has once again validated them , it makes my day. It is hard, if not impossible, to disprove their stand on BTs and the 144,000. I've seen 20+ books on Rev. all different. I won't touch that one.

I like the recent comment I came upon while reading George Howard that there are about 20,000 errors in KJ. Hope that fellow who was quoting from it the other day isn't offended.

Why do I do this? I'm retired and I love it. It's one of my hobbies. I get to play the lawyer I never was. Without pay!

Poppers - I will reread your post and get back. Wayne

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Frank - Good to see that all you have left is cartoons.

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Frank - I like JW reasoning and logic. That is why they put the outrages distortions of the Catholic Church out of their teachings. The Trinity, Christmas, Easter, Hell, Immortal soul, and finally teach the truth about these. I think their teachings about tranfusions and the 144,000 are ridiculous, but it's their doctrine. You are not fighting it from the bible because it can't be done, so you resort to fabrication and inflammatory headers and silly cartoons. The 5 children featured in Awake May 22/94 were scrutinized by judges and panels and found to be capable of making their own decision, and that they were NOT COERCED in any way. And you, in your infinite wisdom, call it "murder".

All you have left to continue your bashing with is exaggerated stories about mythological ogres in Brooklyn, who you claim to have proof enough to scare them from suing, but you alo can't produce in these posts. If you had proof, the New York Times would probably pay a king's ransom for it. You also have been using 1000s of this and 1000s of that long before I knew this site existed. I had a lengthy running debate with MacGregor years ago about their gross errors and outright lies, to no avail. I'm tired. I've been there and I'm back, as the Tony Randall song goes.

You were on this mission a long time and now that I've cornered you and called you on your exaggerations, will you withdraw them, or would that take the pleasure out of life?

And regarding a statement made earlier, have I read every newspaper?, I say this - that if there were a breaking story about Witnesses anywhere in the world, the Toronto Star would have it. It's funny that you know things that reporters don't. Wayne

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

Poppers - You paid $2500 for meditation? I paid $100 for a half hour session around the same time as you did yours. I can see why you became disallusioned!

As to latitude for those who have had bad experiences, I'm not buying it. This site besmirches all Witnesses everywhere because of a few bad ones. Every Witness I have ever met, including my childhood friend is not deserving of this treatment. Since they are basically non-confrontational, I do this for them on my own and without their approval. They are exception people who I would like to be like, but will never attain.

I have proven to myself that their major doctrines are right on, and validated over and over again by the latest scholarly research, but all I see in sites such as this is opinions and outrageous claims (I stop short of calling them lies), as you have seen in my exchanges with my online debaters.

If people on these sites have been mistreated by JWs,they should go after the individuals themselves. Leave other innocent Witnesses alone and unhindered to do what they do best.

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Wayne L

from 16-Oct-02

This is how the Watchtower Society murders its own people

Frank - You have a way with words. I was under the illusion that this person ( a consenting adult, and being faithful to Jehovah's word, as she believed it) willingly refused blood.

If the children in my previous post Awake May 22/94 convinced judges of their ability to consent, how much more foolish is your overly-dramatic claim that the Japanese woman was murdered. She was an adult.